新闻来源：politico《政治家》；作者： MATTHEW KARNITSCHNIG；发布时间：September 28, 2020 / 2020年9月28日

翻译：Victory；简评：城堡；校对/审核：海阔天空 ；Page：拱卒

简评：

德国一直以来都是中共蓝金黄的重灾区，从德国车企在中共国的优厚待遇，中共国与德国的贸易占到中共国与欧洲贸易总量的三分之一，默克尔多次到访与中共国多位领导人亲密接触，到德国前总理飞利浦·罗斯勒与王岐山家族和海航间说不清道不明的关系……

而现如今，我们却看到德国毅然决然站在了欧洲反共灭共的最前沿，“战汪”王毅出访德国本希望能得到外交支持，却碰了一鼻子灰：德国外长呼吁撤回《港版国安法》，多位议员在人权问题上强势发声，德国媒体也警告称“中共国正在欧洲散播极权理念”。应该说，作为共产主义邪灵的诞生地，德国人对于马克思主义共产政权是个什么玩意再清楚不过了。更何况中共病毒已经散播到全世界，德国既没有客观条件也没有任何理由，再去为了利益而与中共沆瀣一气。

在默克尔已经明确表态不再寻求2021年继续连任的情况下，德国最大政治势力基督教民主联盟候选人的表态，就变得尤为重要。可以预见的是，不论是谁接任默克尔，都将一改德国十几年来亲共的国家战略。从德国各界的呼声来看，未来在5G、一代一路、贸易、人权等等问题上对中共施压已成定局。虽然传统的建制派政治正确依然具有很大惯性，川普及平民主义势力得到老牌政治集团的认可难度很大，但仅从“灭共”这一立场上来说，双方是一致的。而这，对于任何一位向往法治、民主、自由的中国人来说，就已经足够了。

原文翻译：

Q&A: German leadership candidate Norbert Röttgen

问答：德国领导人候选人诺伯特·罗特根

Bundestag’s foreign affairs chief on China, 5G and transatlantic relations.

德国联邦议院(Bundestag)负责中共国、5G和跨大西洋关系的外交事务负责人

As part of a series on the race to succeed Angela Merkel as German chancellor, POLITICO's Chief Europe Correspondent Matthew Karnitschnig spoke to Norbert Röttgen, chairman of the Bundestag’s foreign affairs committee. Röttgen is one of three candidates in the running to take over the leadership of the governing center-right Christian Democrats (CDU).

作为有关接任安格拉·默克尔(Angela Merkel)的下一任德国总理大选系列报道的一部分， POLITICO首席欧洲记者卡尼辛内基（Matthew Karnitschnig）对话诺伯特·罗特根，德国联邦议院外交事务委员会主席。罗特根是角逐右翼执政党基督教民主联盟(CDU)领导权的三位候选人之一。

The following is a transcript of the interview, lightly edited for length and clarity. 以下是采访文字记录，为篇幅和明晰稍作编辑。

China 关于中共国

POLITICO: How do you view Europe’s relationship with China? Is there any chance we could see the investment agreement that has been under negotiation anytime soon?

POLITICO: 您如何看待欧洲与中共国的关系?我们在近期内是否可能达成正在谈判的投资协议？

RÖTTGEN: The EU has a clear position here: We insist that China opens itself to European companies in a manner comparable to how Chinese companies are treated in the EU. That means not just fair access to the market, but also the freedom to make business decisions without being forced to transfer technology or to partner with Chinese companies. China considers the status quo preferable to making concessions here or on other fronts, which is why the negotiations have not succeeded over the past seven years.

罗特根: 欧盟在这方面立场很明确:我们坚持，中共国对欧洲企业的开放程度应与中共国企业在欧盟受到的待遇相当。这不仅意味着公平的市场准入，还意味着在不被迫转让技术，或被迫与中共国企业合作的情况下自由地做出商业决策。中共国更乐意维持现状而不想在一些方面做出让步，这就是谈判在过去7年未能成功的原因。

POLITICO: Does that mean you support Europe’s current course?

POLITICO: 这是否意味着你支持欧洲当前的路线。

RÖTTGEN: Yes, the European position to demand reciprocity is the right one. We can see here that in areas where the EU is truly united, it also has power and global strength. When it comes to trade policy, we are a global power.

罗特根:是的，欧洲要求互惠的立场是正确的。我们可以由此看到在一些领域欧盟可以真正团结起来，它同样拥有影响力和全球实力。在贸易政策方面，我们是一股世界力量。

POLITICO: And yet, the relationship to China remains difficult …

POLITICO: 然而，与中共国的关系仍然困难重重...

RÖTTGEN: Generally speaking, the relationship with China is in flux. It has become increasingly clear that the direction things go will be determined by the fact that China is more than just a big market. Under Xi, the country has transformed into a very important geostrategic actor. That has forced a reassessment which, in Germany in particular, has yet to be completed. It is a reaction to the fundamental change in Chinese politics and China’s new self-confidence under Xi Jinping.

罗特根:总的来说，与中共国的关系处于变化之中。越来越明显的是，事情的发展方向将取决于这一事实:中共国不仅是个大市场。在习近平的治理下，这个国家已经变成了一个非常重要的地缘政治参与者。必须对此进行重新评估，而在德国，评估尚未完成。这是对中共国政治的根本变化和中共国在习近平治下新的自信作出的反应。

POLITICO: Don’t you think we in the West were a bit naive about China? European industry has been warning about intellectual property theft and complaining about business conditions in China for the better part of 20 years.

POLITICO: 你不觉得我们西方人对中共国有些天真吗?在过去20年大部分时间里，欧洲行业一直对知识产权盗窃发出警告，并抱怨中共国的商业环境。

RÖTTGEN: That’s true, but in the last one or two years, a new realism has emerged. This is a course we have to continue to pursue. It’s still not too late.

罗特根:这是事实，但在过去的一两年中，一种新的现实主义出现了。这是我们必须继续努力的方向。现在还不晚。

POLITICO: What has changed?

POLITICO:什么发生了变化？

RÖTTGEN: The situation today is different in two aspects. For a long time, German industry’s view was: No matter how bad we are treated, we still have to remain in China because the market is so big. While no one said this out loud, the Chinese knew it was the case, which had a predictably negative effect on any negotiating position.

罗特根:今天的情况在两个方面有所不同。长期以来，德国工业界的看法是:无论我们受到了多么差的对待，我们都必须留在中共国，因为市场太大了。虽然没有人大声说出来，但中共知道情况就是这样，这对任何谈判立场都会产生可以预见的负面影响。

POLITICO: And the second difference?

POLITICO: 第二个变化呢？

RÖTTGEN: Twenty years ago, China’s image of itself was much different. It saw itself as a developing country. The focus was on its own development and there wasn’t a sense that they needed to devote resources to international policy. This has also changed under Xi. China is now pursuing a self-confident, expansive foreign policy.

罗特根: 20年前，中共国对自己的认知与现在大不相同。它曾认为自己是一个发展中国家。他们关注的是自身发展，没有意识到他们需要为国际政策投入资源。这在习近平的领导下也发生了变化。中共国现在正在奉行一种自信的、扩张性的外交政策。

POLITICO: In what way?

POLITICO: 以哪种方式？

RÖTTGEN: China’s new confidence can be seen in the Belt and Road initiative, in the territorial claims in the South China Sea, and more recently in the way it acted during the pandemic. China’s clear expectation was that other countries would accept the Chinese coronavirus narrative and also make public displays of gratitude for Chinese support.

罗特根:中共国在“一带一路”倡议、在南中国海的领土主张，以及最近在疫情大流行期间的行为，都表现出新的信心。中共国明确希望其他国家接受中共国关于冠状病毒的说法，并公开对中共国的支持表示感谢。

POLITICO: What should Europe do now?

POLITICO: 现在欧洲该怎么做？

RÖTTGEN: The key point is that it’s not yet too late to respond to these changes. But the window is closing. That’s why we Europeans must come to a common position on China. Our approach should be one of realism, not enmity.

罗特根:关键的是，现在对这些变化做出应对还不算太晚。但窗口正在关闭。这就是为什么我们欧洲人必须在中共国问题上达成共识。我们的做法应该是现实主义的，而不是敌意的。

POLITICO: Speaking of the South China Sea, there has been some consideration in Berlin over whether to dispatch the German Navy in that direction, to send a signal. Do you support that?

POLITICO: 谈到南中国海，柏林方面一直在考虑是否向南中国海派遣德国海军，以发出一个信号。你支持这一观点吗？

RÖTTGEN: Freedom of the seas is a fundamental principle of international law that is of great importance to us as an export nation. We should be ready to do something for that. At the same time, I think that from a German perspective, considering our capabilities at the moment, there are more urgent needs elsewhere. Our top priority should be to develop an all-encompassing European strategy on China, and here Germany plays a key role.

罗特根: 海洋自由是国际法的一项基本原则，这对我们这个出口国具有重大意义。我们应该准备为此做点什么。与此同时，我认为从德国的角度来看，考虑到我们目前的能力，其他地方有更迫切的需求。我们的首要任务应该是制定全面的对中共国的欧洲战略，德国在这方面发挥着关键作用。

POLITICO: You’re considered to be a transatlanticist. Don’t you want to cooperate more closely with the U.S. on China?

POLITICO: 人们认为你是个跨大西洋主义者。难道你不想在中共国问题上和美国更紧密地合作吗？

RÖTTGEN: As soon as Washington returns to rational policies, also vis-à-vis China, I will be for a transatlantic China policy.

罗特根:一旦华盛顿恢复理性政策，包括对中共国的，届时我也会支持跨大西洋对中共国政策。

5G and Huawei 5G和华为

POLITICO: What does that mean for the current debate over 5G and Huawei?

POLITICO: 这对于当前围绕5G和华为的争论又意味着什么？

RÖTTGEN: In the 5G debate, we need to come to a decision soon. My position is clear: It is in our interest to have a European technology that we can also use for industry and that will at the same time guarantee our digital sovereignty and national security. We must not allow ourselves to become dependent and then susceptible to blackmail. In my view, the 5G decision is of critical strategic importance and perfectly suited as an entry point toward a common European China policy.

罗特根:在关于5G的辩论中，我们需要尽快做出决定。我的立场很明确:拥有一项我们可以用于工业的欧洲技术既符合我们的利益，同时也保证我们的数字主权和国家安全。我们决不能允许自己变得对外依赖，而容易受制于人。在我看来，有关5G的决定具有至关重要的战略意义，非常适合作为欧洲对中共国共同政策的切入点。

POLITICO: What do you think of the German government’s approach?

POLITICO: 您如何看待德国政府的做法？

RÖTTGEN: Over the past year, we’ve engaged in an intensive debate in Germany, the result of which has been that we haven’t taken any wrong decisions. It would now be desirable to make a right decision as soon as possible, one that is driven by the goal of expanding German and European digital sovereignty. I am optimistic.

罗特根:在过去的一年里，我们在德国进行了激烈的辩论，最终我们没有做出任何错误决定。现在，人们希望尽快做出正确的决定，这是由想要扩大德国和欧洲数字主权的目标所推动的。我对此是乐观的。

POLITICO: The U.S. made its decision a long time ago. Why does Germany need so much time?

POLITICO: 美国很早就做出了决定。为什么德国需要这么长时间？

RÖTTGEN: Because Germany has different interests to consider. But the debate here has moved over the past year. At the beginning, there was no question for the German government that Chinese companies should be involved. Now we’re at a point where a company’s participation has become a question of trust. That will be determined according to how much influence a foreign state has on the company.

罗特根:因为德国有不同的利益考量。但在过去的一年里，此处争论的焦点有所变化。一开始，德国政府毫不怀疑中共国企业应该参与其中。现如今既然一家公司的参与已经变成信任问题。这就将取决于外国政府对该公司影响的程度。

POLITICO: Donald Trump’s treatment of Germany would appear to have complicated the transatlantic relationship. What do you expect from Joe Biden if he wins?

POLITICO: 川普对德国的态度似乎使跨大西洋两岸的关系复杂化了。如果乔·拜登获胜，你对他有什么期待？

RÖTTGEN: Unfortunately, the position of the American administration on all these issues — defense spending, Nord Stream, Huawei — has been counterproductive. Iran is another example. Should Joe Biden win, I would expect his government to return to a partnership based on rational thinking and cooperation.

罗特根:不幸的是，美国政府在所有这些问题上的立场—国防支出，北溪(天然气管道)，华为等等方面，一直是适得其反。伊朗是另一个例子。如果拜登获胜，我预计他的政府将回到基于理性思考与合作的伙伴关系上来。

Transatlantic relations 跨大西洋关系

POLITICO: How do you define “partnership?”

POLITICO:你如何定义“伙伴关系”？

RÖTTGEN: My expectation is that we Europeans will be asked to do a lot more. If there is a change in the White House, we need to be ready to shape the transatlantic relationship by making a substantial contribution. On the American side, I would expect a return to rationality, cooperation and multilateralism. Maybe we’ll receive a new invitation for a “partnership in leadership.” This time, we should take it.

罗特根:我预计，我们欧洲人将被要求做更多的事情。如果白宫发生变化，我们需要准备好通过做出实质性贡献，塑造大西洋两岸的关系。在美国方面，我期待回归理性、合作和多边主义。也许我们会接收到新的“具有领导力的伙伴关系”的邀请。这一次，我们应该接受它。

POLITICO: So you’re expecting a full reversal in American foreign policy?

POLITICO: 所以你期待着美国外交政策的彻底逆转？

RÖTTGEN: No, not at all. The foreign policy priority will be on China, in particular, and on the Indo-Pacific region, more generally. The conclusion will be that a cooperation with the Europeans is more urgent than ever. As such, a new American administration will understand that the goal shouldn’t be to force American positions on Germans and Europeans, but rather to find a new division of labor. Both sides need to contribute.

罗特根:不，完全不是。外交政策的重点将放在中共国，更笼统地说，尤其是在印太地区。结论将是，与欧洲人合作比以往任何时候都更为紧迫。因此，新一届美国政府将明白，目标不应该是将美国的立场强加给德国和欧洲人，而是找到一种新的分工合作方式。双方都需要做出贡献。

POLITICO: Does NATO have a future if Trump is reelected?

POLITICO: 如果川普再次当选，北约还有未来吗？

RÖTTGEN: If he’s reelected, we’re going to see an acceleration of what we’ve experienced over the past four years. First and foremost, that’s true for the U.S. itself and the internal divisions and aggression in the country. As a result, the U.S. would see its ability to take international leadership erode further. A country that is internally divided and full of acrimony will at some point lose the ability to shape foreign affairs. So we’d see the American retreat from international politics continue, creating a vacuum that others would be more than happy to fill.

罗特根:如果他再次当选，我们将看到我们在过去四年经历的加速。首先最重要的是，对美国自身而言其内部的分裂和好斗情绪是真实的。其结果是，美国将看到自己发挥国际领导作用的能力进一步削弱。一个内部分裂、充满敌意的国家，终有一天会失去处理外交事务的能力。因此，我们看到美国继续退出国际政治舞台，留下一个其他国家将非常乐意填补的真空。

POLITICO: Why should the U.S. continue to guarantee Europe’s security 30 years after the end of the Cold War? Europe is both rich and strong enough, right?

POLITICO: 冷战结束30年后，美国为什么还要继续保障欧洲的安全？欧洲已经足够富裕和强大了，对吗？

RÖTTGEN: Fundamentally, that’s true, especially from an American perspective. But something like this takes time. The ability to shape the international order is based on much more than just money. But we as Europeans can’t avoid taking responsibility for our own security forever.

罗特根:从根本上说，这是事实，尤其是从美国人的角度来看。但像这样的事情需要时间。塑造国际秩序的能力需要的绝对不只是金钱。但作为欧洲人，我们不能永远回避对自己安全负有的责任。

POLITICO: Do you understand the American frustration with Germany’s failure to assume more responsibility? Or is that an exaggeration?

POLITICO: 你理解美国对德国未能承担更多责任的失望吗?或者这是一种夸大其词？

RÖTTGEN: Barack Obama also had that frustration. But the current American administration is driven by a logic of punishment whenever others do not abide. It isn’t possible to build a partnership on this basis. What’s more, this approach comes with damaging consequences, more so for the U.S. than for Germany. It’s difficult to work with that kind of irrationality.

罗特根:巴拉克•奥巴马也有这种挫败感。但是现在的美国政府被一种每当别人不遵从时就施以惩罚的逻辑所驱动。在这种基础上建立伙伴关系是不可能的。更重要的是，这种做法会带来破坏性的后果，对美国的影响大于对德国的影响。在那种不合理的情况下工作很困难。

POLITICO: Your party is considered to be conservative. Even so, you and a great number of your fellow Christian Democrats support a Democrat in the U.S. presidential election. Why?

POLITICO: 你们的政党被认为是偏保守的。即便如此，你和你们许多基督教民主联盟的人在美国总统选举中支持一位民主党人。为什么？

RÖTTGEN: Traditionally, the CDU’s relationship to the Republicans was stronger. Historically speaking, the Republicans were much more engaged in international affairs during the postwar period. The relationship reached a high point with the older George Bush during reunification. What we’ve been forced to witness more recently is the hostile takeover of the Republican Party by Donald Trump.

罗特根:传统上，基督教民主联盟与共和党的关系更为密切。从历史上看，共和党人在战后时期更多地参与了国际事务。德国统一期间，和老布什的关系达到了顶点。我们最近被迫见证了川普带着敌意接管了共和党。

POLITICO: Don’t you think it could become difficult for Germany in the long term if the country can only work with one of the two dominant American parties?

POLITICO: 难道你不认为，如果只能与美国两个主要政党中的一个合作，从长远来看对德国来说会很艰难吗？

RÖTTGEN: If there’s a change in the White House, there will have to be a process of reflection in the Republican Party about the past four years. The Republicans are going to have to reposition themselves. In the future, we will see different faces.

罗特根:如果白宫发生变化，那共和党就必须对过去四年进行反思。共和党人将不得不重新定位自己。在未来，我们将看到不同的面孔。

The interview took place in Berlin on September 15.

采访于9月15日在柏林进行。

编辑：【喜马拉雅战鹰团】Edited by：【Himalaya Hawk Squad】