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莱特希泽证实：中美第一阶段贸易协议已达成，预计明年一月签署
Transcript: Robert Lighthizer on "Face the Nation," December 15, 2019
文字记录：罗伯特·莱特希泽于2019年12月15日星期日在《面对国家》节目中接受采访
The following is a transcript of an interview with U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer that aired Sunday, December 15, 2019, on "Face the Nation." This interview was taped in-studio Saturday, December 14, 2019
以下是美国贸易代表罗伯特·莱特希泽于2019年12月15日星期日在《面对国家》节目中接受采访的文字记录。这段采访是2019年12月14日星期六在演播室录制的
MARGARET BRENNAN: This week, the U.S. and China agreed on the first phase of a trade deal that would roll back some American tariffs. It's expected to be signed in early January. We're joined now by the U.S. Trade Representative, Robert Lighthizer, the top negotiator in those talks with Chinese officials. Good to have you here.
玛格丽特·布伦南: 本周，美国和中国就第一阶段的贸易协议达成一致，该协议将降低美国的一些关税。该协议预计将于明年1月初签署。我们现在请到了美国贸易代表罗伯特·莱特希泽，他是与中国官员会谈的首席谈判代表。很高兴你能来。
U.S. TRADE REPRESENTATIVE ROBERT LIGHTHIZER: Thank you for having me, MARGARET.
美国贸易代表罗伯特·莱特希泽: 玛格丽特，谢谢你邀请我。
MARGARET BRENNAN: It's huge to have the two largest economies in the world cool off some of these tensions that have been rattling the global economy. But I want to get to some of the details here. China says still needs to be proofread, still needs to be translated. Is you being here today a sign this is done, this deal's not falling apart?
玛格丽特·布伦南: 让世界上最大的两个经济体为这些一直困扰着全球经济的紧张局势降温是非常重大的事件。但我想了解一些细节。中国说还需要校对，还需要翻译。你今天在这里是不是意味着这件事已经完成了，这笔交易不会被撕毁？
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: So first of all, this is done. This is something that happens in every agreement. There's a translation period. There are some scrubs. This is totally done. Absolutely. But can I make one point? Because I think it's really important. Friday was probably the most momentous day in trade history ever. That day we submitted the USMCA, the Mexico-Canada Agreement with bipartisan support and support of business, labor, agriculture. We actually introduced that into the House and the Senate on this, which is about 1.4 trillion dollars worth of the economy- I mean of- of trade. And then in addition to this, which is about 600 billion, so that's literally about half of total trade were announced on the same day. It was extremely momentous and indicative of where we're going, what this president has accomplished.
安布.莱特希泽：首先，这个完成了。这是每个协议中都会发生的事情。有一个翻译过程。有一些摩擦。这是全部完成了。绝对的。但我能说一点吗?因为我认为这很重要。周五可能是贸易史上最重要的一天。那一天，我们在两党支持下提交了USMCA，墨西哥-加拿大协议，支持商业、劳工和农业。我们实际上已经在参众两院都提到了这一点，也就是大约1.4万亿美元的经济，我的意思是，贸易。除此之外，还有6000亿美元，这几乎是同一天宣布的贸易总额的一半。这是非常重要的，也表明了我们未来应该怎么走，和总统已经取得的成就。
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, that is significant and I do want to get to the USMCA. But because the China deal just happened--
玛格丽特·布伦南: 嗯，这很重要，我确实想谈USMCA。但是因为中国的贸易协议刚刚发生了
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: Right.
安布.莱特希泽：是的。
玛格丽特·布伦南: --and we know so little about it, I'd like to get some more detail from you. You said this is set.
玛格丽特·布伦南: 我们对它知之甚少，我想从你那里得到更多的细节。你说一切都安排好了。
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: Yes.
安布.莱特希泽：是的。
MARGARET BRENNAN: You expect the signing in early January still.
玛格丽特·布伦南: 你预期在1月初签署。
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: Right.
安布.莱特希泽：是的。
MARGARET BRENNAN: What gives President Trump the confidence to say China's going to go out and buy $50 billion worth of agricultural goods because Beijing hasn't said that number?
玛格丽特·布伦南: 是什么让特朗普总统有信心说中国将购买价值500亿美元的农产品，因为北京没有说这个数字?
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: First of all- let me say first of all, I would say this. When we look at this agreement, we have to look at where we are. We have an American system, and we have a Chinese system. And we're trying to figure out a way to have these two become integrated. That's what's in our interest. A phase one deal does the following: one, it keeps in place three hundred and eighty billion dollars worth of tariffs to defend, protect U.S. technology. So that's one part of it. Another part of it is very important structural changes. This is not about just agricultural and other purchases, although I'll get to that in a second. It's very important. It has IP. It has- it has—
安布.莱特希泽：我首先要说，我想说的是。当我们审视这份协议时，我们必须审视我们的现状。我们有美国的体系，也有中国的体系。我们正试图找到一种方法让这两者结合起来。这才是我们感兴趣的。第一阶段协议的作用如下：第一，它维持了价值3800亿美元的关税，以保护美国的技术。所以这是其中的一部分。另一部分是非常重要的结构性改变。这不仅仅是关于农业和其他购买，尽管我马上会讲到。这很重要。它有知识产权（IP）。它有-它有--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Intellectual property--
玛格丽特·布伦南: 知识产权
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: --technology. It has- it has currency. It has financial services. There's a lot of very- the next thing is, it's- it's enforceable. There's an enforcement provision that lasts 90 days- it takes 90 days and you get real, real enforcement. The United States can then take an action if China doesn't keep its commitments--
安布.莱特希泽：技术。它有——它有货币。它有金融服务。有很多。接下来是，它是可以强制执行的。有一个为期90天的强制执行条款——它需要90天，你会得到真正的强制执行。如果中国不遵守承诺，美国可以采取行动—
MARGARET BRENNAN: Put the tariffs back on?
玛格丽特·布伦南: 重新征收关税？
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: Well, you would take a proportionate reaction like we do in every other trade agreement. So that's what we expect. And finally, we'll- we'll find out whether this works or not. We have an enforcement mechanism. But ultimately, whether this whole agreement works is going to be determined by who's making the decisions in China, not in the United States. If the hardliners are making the decisions, we're going to get one outcome. If- if the reformers are making the decisions, which is what we hope, then we're going to get another outcome. This is a- the way to think about this deal, is this is a first step in trying to integrate two very different systems to the benefit of both of us.
安布.莱特希泽：我们会像我们在其他贸易协定中那样，采取相应的反应。所以这就是我们所期望的。最后，我们会— 我们会知道这是否有效。我们有执行机制。但最终，整个协议是否有效将取决于在中国的决策者，而不是在美国。如果强硬派做出决定，我们将得到一个结果。如果—如果改革派做出决定，这是我们所希望的，那么我们将得到另一个结果。这是一个思考这个交易的方式，这是尝试整合两个非常不同的系统的第一步，对我们双方都有利。
MARGARET BRENNAN: But that $50 billion number, is that in writing?
玛格丽特·布伦南: 但是那500亿美元的数字有写成书面了吗?
AMB.LIGHTHIZER: Absolutely. So- so here's what's in writing. We- we have a list that will go manufacturing, agriculture, services, energy and the like. There'll be a total for each one of those. Overall, it's a minimum of 200 billion dollars. Keep in mind, by the second year, we will just about double exports of goods to China, if this- if this agreement is in place. Double exports. We had about 128 billion dollars in 2017. We're going to go up at least by a hundred, probably a little over one hundred. And in terms of the agriculture numbers, what we have are specific breakdowns by products and we have a commitment for 40 to 50 billion dollars in sales. You could think of it as 80 to 100 billion dollars in new sales for agriculture over the course of the next two years. Just massive numbers.
安布.莱特希泽：当然。这就是书面的东西。我们有一个清单，包括制造业、农业、服务业、能源等。每个都有一个总数。总的来说，至少是2000亿美元。请记住，到第二年，我们对中国的出口将会翻一番，如果这个协议生效的话。双出口。我们在2017年有1280亿美元。至少上升1000亿，可能略大于1000亿。在农业方面，我们有具体的产品分类，我们承诺销售400到500亿美元。你可以把它想象成在接下来的两年里为农业带来的800到1000亿美元的新销售。是一个很大的数据。
MARGARET BRENNAN: And that is important in no small part because also this is a key political constituency for President Trump going into the election, to take some pain off of American farmers who've been feeling it pretty strongly. I mean, the USDA projects that the soybean market won't recover, I think till 2026 because of the damage that has been done to it.
玛格丽特·布伦南: 这很重要，因为这也是特朗普总统竞选的一个关键政治选区，可以减轻美国农民的痛苦，他们对此感受非常强烈。我的意思是，美国农业部预测大豆市场到2026年才会恢复，因为它已经受到了损害。
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: Listen--
安布.莱特希泽：听我说--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is that- how much of that, that political calculus, factored into the agreement to do this in phases? Because you didn't want to do it in phases.
玛格丽特·布伦南: 在协议中分阶段达成协议，这其中有多少是政治考量的因素?因为你不想分阶段做。
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: Well, it was MARGARET--
安布.莱特希泽：玛格丽特--, 是。。。
MARGARET BRENNAN: The Chinese did.
玛格丽特·布伦南: 中方做的。
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: It was always going to be in phases. The question was, how big was the first phase? Anyone who thinks you're going to take their system and our system that have- that have worked in a very unbalanced way for the United States and in- in one stroke of the pen change all of that is foolish. The president is not foolish. He's very smart. The question was, how big- how big was the first phase going to be? This is going to take years. We're not going to resolve these differences very quickly. On the agriculture point, that's a good point. Let me say this. If you look at American agriculture in between USMCA, which is Canada and Mexico, China, Japan, Korea, we have rewritten the rules in favor of American agriculture on more than half, 56 percent, of all of our exports from agriculture. This, over the course of the last year, what this president has accomplished in this area, is remarkable. And you're already- any one of these deals would have been monstrous. And the fact that we have all of them together—
安布.莱特希泽：它总是分阶段的。问题是，第一阶段有多大？任何一个认为你会采取他们的系统或者我们的系统的人——这些系统曾经对美国非常不公平，而且认为一次就可以改变——所有这些都是愚蠢的。总统并不愚蠢。他很聪明。问题是，第一阶段会有多大？这需要很多年的时间。我们不会很快解决这些分歧。在农业方面，这是一个很好的观点。让我这样说吧。如果你看看USMCA之间的美国农业，即加拿大、墨西哥、中国、日本、韩国，我们已经重写了有利于美国农业的规则，超过一半，56%，我们所有的农业出口。在过去一年里，这位总统在这一领域所取得的成就是非凡的。你已经 — 这些交易中的任何一项都是不可思议的。而事实上，我们已经获得所有这些交易—
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
玛格丽特·布伦南: 是的。
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: --is- is great for agriculture.
安布.莱特希泽：对农业很有好处。
MARGARET BRENNAN: I just want to button up on China, though, because the promise here was to do the things that American businesses have been complaining about for years--
玛格丽特·布伦南: 不过，我只是想让中国守规矩，因为这里承诺是美国企业多年来一直抱怨的事情-
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: Absolutely.
安布.莱特希泽：绝对是的。
MARGARET BRENNAN: Not just the intellectual property theft, but subsidizing corporations in China in an unfair way for Americans. Cybertheft. None of that's here.
玛格丽特·布伦南: 不仅是知识产权盗窃，而且以一种对美国人不公平的方式补贴中国的公司。网络盗窃。这些都不在这里。
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: Well--
安布.莱特希泽：嗯……
MARGARET BRENNAN: That's phase two. When do you start negotiating that?
玛格丽特·布伦南: 这是第二阶段。你们什么时候开始谈判？
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: So let me say first of all--
安布.莱特希泽：所以首先我要说--
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is there a date?
玛格丽特·布伦南: 定日期了吗？
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: Let's talk about what's here rather than what's not here.
安布.莱特希泽：我们来谈谈这里有什么，而不是这里没有什么。
MARGARET BRENNAN: But that's huge.
玛格丽特·布伦南: 但那是巨大的。
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: Absolute rules on--
安布.莱特希泽：绝对是的……
MARGARET BRENNAN: That's what President Trump said this whole trade war was starting on.
玛格丽特·布伦南: 特朗普总统就是这么说的，这是整个贸易战开始的原因。
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: Look at tech- tech transfer is huge. That's what's in the 301 report. Look, we had a plan that- the president came up with a plan. We've been following it for two and a half years. We are right where we hope to be. Tech transfer, real commitments, IP, real specific commitments. I mean, this agreement is 86 pages long of detail. Agricultural barriers removed in many cases, financial services opening, currency. This is a real structural change. Is it going to solve all the problems? No. Did we expect it to? No. Absolutely not.
安布.莱特希泽：看看技术——技术转移是巨大的方面。这就是301报告的内容。听着，我们有个计划— 总统想出了一个计划。我们已经实施它两年半了。我们达到了我们所希望的。技术转让，真正的承诺，知识产权，真正的具体承诺。我的意思是，这份协议有86页的细节。在许多情况下，农业壁垒被消除，金融服务开放，货币。这是一个真正的结构性变化。它能解决所有的问题吗? 不。我们期待它解决所有的问题吗? 不。绝对没有。
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do- the president said those talks in to start immediately, though. Do you have a date?
玛格丽特·布伦南: 尽管如此，总统表示会谈将立即开始。你有日期吗?
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: We don't have a date, no. What we have to do is get this- we have to get the- the final translations worked out, the formalities. We're going to sign this agreement. But I'll tell you this. The second Phase 2 is going to be determined also by how we implement phase one. Phase one is going to be implemented right to the- right down to every detail.
安布.莱特希泽：我们没有日期，没有。我们要做的是把这个——我们必须要把这个——最终的翻译做完成，这是正式程序。我们要签署这份协议。但我要告诉你。第二阶段也将取决于我们如何实施第一阶段。第一阶段将会实施到每一个细节。
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to--
玛格丽特·布伦南: 我想--
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: It really is a remarkable agreement, but it's not going to solve all the problems.
安布.莱特希泽：这确实是一个了不起的协议，但它不会解决所有的问题。
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we need to take a short break. We'll be back with US Trade Representative Lighthizer in a moment.
玛格丽特·布伦南: 嗯，我们需要休息一下。我们一会儿就回来继续贸易代表莱特希泽的访谈。
*COMMERCIAL* *广告*
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to Face the Nation and our conversation with US Trade representative Robert Lighthizer. Let's talk about the other agreement. The House is set, Democratic controlled House, is set to vote on the USMCA, the free trade deal with Mexico and Canada that's been rewritten. This is a win for the president to get this through, but Nanc- Speaker Pelosi and her caucus did have some last minute maneuvers here. Speaker Pelosi is quoted as saying we ate their lunch when it comes to the Trump administration.
玛格丽特·布伦南: 欢迎回到《面对国家》节目， 欢迎回到我们与美国贸易代表罗伯特·莱特希泽的对话。我们来谈谈另一项协议。众议院已经确定，民主党控制的众议院将对USMCA进行投票，与墨西哥和加拿大的自由贸易协议已经被重写。对于总统来说，这是一次胜利，但是发言人佩洛西和她的党团在最后时刻确实有一些策略。美国众议院议长佩洛西(Pelosi)曾说，在涉及特朗普政府的问题上，我们吃了他们的午餐。
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: So--
安布.莱特希泽：那又怎么样。。。
MARGARET BRENNAN: How do you respond to that?
玛格丽特·布伦南: 你对此有何回应?
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: We had a great--
安布.莱特希泽：我们有一个很棒的——
MARGARET BRENNAN: You made some concessions to labor here. That was not insignificant and it did irk some Republicans.
玛格丽特·布伦南: 你在这里劳工法上做了一些让步。这不是无关紧要的，而且确实惹恼了一些共和党人。
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: So- so- so let me- let me make a point about that. We had an election and the Democrats won the House, number one. Number two, it was always my plan and I was criticized for this, as you know, it was always my plan that this should be a Trump trade policy. And a Trump trade policy is going to get a lot of Democratic support. Remember, most of these working people voted for the president of the United States. These are- these are not his enemies. So what did we concede on? We conceded on biologics. Yes. That was a move away from what I wanted, for sure. But labor enforcement? There's nothing about being against labor enforcement that's Republican. The president wants Mexico to enforce its labor laws. He doesn't want American manufacturing workers to have to compete with people who are- who are operating in- in- in very difficult conditions. So there's--
安布.莱特希泽：那么，那么，那么让我——让我来说明一下。我们进行了一次选举，民主党赢得了众议院，这是第一。第二，这一直是我的计划，我因此受到批评，你们知道，这一直是我的计划，这应该是特朗普的贸易政策。特朗普的贸易政策是将得到很多民主党人的支持。请记住，这些劳动人民大多数投票给了美国的总统。这些不是他的敌人。那么我们在哪些方面让步了呢?我们在生物制品上让步了。是的。那肯定是偏离了我想要的。但劳工法呢? 根本没有什么共和党反对劳工法之说。总统希望墨西哥实施其劳工法。他不希望美国的制造业工人不得不与那些在非常困难的条件下工作的人竞争。这是——
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you don't think there's a political cost because Republican senators were annoyed to be cut out of this last phase?
玛格丽特·布伦南: 但是你不认为这是一个政治代价，因为共和党参议员们对在最后阶段被排除在外感到恼火?
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: Look it there are- there are always process issues. This bill is better now with the exception of biologics, which is a big exception. With the exception of biologics, it's more enforceable and it's better for American workers and American manufacturers and agriculture workers than it was before. For sure.
安布.莱特希泽：看，总是有过程问题。这个法案现在更好了，除了生物制品，这是一个很大的例外。除了生物制品，它更具可执行性，对美国工人、美国制造商和农业工人来说比以前更好。肯定的。
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mr. Lighthizer, Thank you very much for joining us.
玛格丽特·布伦南: 莱特希泽先生，非常感谢您的光临。
AMB. LIGHTHIZER: Thank you for having me.
安布.莱特希泽：谢谢你邀请我。
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we'll be right back with a lot more Face the Nation. Stay with us.
玛格丽特·布伦南: 稍后我们将带来更多的“面向全国”节目。请不要离开。
原文链接
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transcript-robert-lighthizer-on-face-the-nation-december-15-2019/
翻译： 阿丙
【秘密翻译组】